Bob; Juveniles also begin to show some differences in the width of the head and the shape of shell as viewed from above. The females start developing the wider jaws and the shell is wider/rounder. I couldn’t see the differences until some of my own have reached about two and a half to three inches in plastron length. Now that I have several dozen juveniles of various subspecies and ages, I am beginning to be able to see more differences earlier. My Carolina juveniles are really showing the jaw width early. A little less on the Texas and the least on the Northerns (all approximately the same plastron length). With several juveniles and adults to compare, I think I am getting a little better at guessing on the sex of the younger ones. Once you’ve had a chance to see your own develop over time, the tail ID gets much clearer. Adult male tails are quite a bit longer and thicker than female tails. I am always a little amazed to pickup my big adult females and see those tiny, short tails compared to the males’. And the size difference between males and full-grown females is still fascinating to me (as is the case with some of the Graptemys map species). I know this doesn’t help you much at present, though :-(. But the first adult DBTs I bought were supposed to be two sexed pairs. I about went nuts trying to determine for certain that I had received four males before I took up the issue with the seller. Luckily, I was able to haul them over to Rick’s for a little assistance. So, I know how frustrating this can be! Todd in Texas irnbru@… wrote: