Scott ( and Rick); First, I agree that only macrospilotas are “ornates.” I’ve expressed my frustration on this before on the list. However, I have been talking with a breeder who has over 20 years of high-quality, selective DBT breeding behind him and he calls exceptionally good looking light phase northerns “ornate northerns.” He surprised me by commenting that he and other breeders (I don’t yet know who they are or how many others) have been moving towards this designation to identify their REALLY high quality light northern phases. Still seems confusing to me, but this information really surprised and intrigued me coming from a long-term, very successful DBT breeder. So, it looks like the confusion will continue . . . Todd Scott wrote: