Phil, I think you have some legimitate comments/concerns and I applaud your efforts in conserving populations of sea turtles. I posted my racoon incident on the Ponders Bible eGroup and most of the replies also suggested using Hav-a-heart traps. I personally chose to go with the mesh covering although I certainly don’t fault anyone who resorts to hunting them. You had mentioned not punishing racoons – I take it you meant not harming them in inhumane ways that would cause undue suffering. Otherwise, disposing of them humanely whether via traps and lethal injection or the shotgun method appear to be feasible ways to control their population. Regarding the pipe method, well, I think the gentleman who suggested that was merely presenting that alternative in jest. Phil, I’m not aware of any of us catching wild turtles for the turtle trade. For one thing, I’m only aware of 2 of our members being in the turtle trade as a side business, I believe. The rest of us are mostly turtle enthusiasts with dbts and some of us have aspirations to breed them successfully. However, some of us have aquired both wild-caught and captive bred dbts in the past. Please realize that most of us who have learned to love dbts first laid eyes on them in a captive environment. Unlike you, and a few select others, most of us have never had the pleasure of seeing them in their natural setting. As bad as the trade of wild turtle populations can be, most of us would never have even heard of a diamondback terrapin if it weren’t for the trade. This doesn’t justify exploitation of wild populations but is simply where a lot of us began our infatuation with chelonia. I believe many of us have since been educated to the extent where we are uncomfortable with collection of wild populations, which is a typical progression for those that stay in herpetoculture for a significant amount of time. Phil, my mention of a field trip to Florida did not include any remarks about collecting them. If that were my intention, I think the term “collecting trip” would have been more accurate. Dbts are protected from commercial harvesting in the state of Florida and have been since 1986 or 1987. Many of us would jump at the opportunity to see dbts in the wild. I would think that would be our main motivation since we could purchase them for less than the cost of an round trip airline ticket and hotel fares. I regret that you are upset about the quality of this group. I don’t think we will ever live up to your expectations with regard to scientific merit and conservation just because most of us are not scientists, nor are we conservationists. However, that does not imply that we are opposed to science or conservation. Most of us are just hobbyists with a love for the species Malaclemys terrapin and a desire to see successful captive propagation of the species. Most of us do not live by populations of dbt so cannot really be involved in conservation other than indirectly through captive propagation. Nor are we in a zoological field like you where our jobs can afford us opportunities to work towards conservation of the species. I do believe you are being a little harsh in that sense as you seem disgusted by our lack of conservation values. Many of us are aware of the conservation issues dealing with dbts but are unfortunately unable to make significant contributions towards that effort. How I would love to rescue dbts from crab traps, highways and byways, incubate eggs from roadkills, headstart juveniles, campaign for preservation of dbt habitat, but how can I since I live on the west coast? Hence, I and others not as fortunate as you, do what we can by creating a website on diamondbacks, forming a group on captive propagation and taking care of dbts under our care. I’m afraid I don’t know of any other group that is more specifically concerned with dbt conservation, although you might get in touch with MW who is an active conservationist in the Chesapeake area. If you can think of any feasible ways that we as a group can be more actively involved in conservation, do let us know. I’m sure we are all open to ideas and are not worse than racoons like you assume we are. I mean, what better group of people to get fired up over dbt conservation than those that have cultivated a love for them? Chun — In diamondbackterrapins@egroups.com, allman_p