Metabolic bone disease

[Charles & Denise]

Does anyone have any experience with successfully treating a diamondback with metabolic bone disease. We wrote awhile ago about our diamondback turtle having sores on her skin. She was put on Baytril injections for about 1 week. Then she was put on a different antibiotic for 6 weeks. She was off that for about 2 weeks and then went back on Baytril injections for about 3 months. The skin infections are gone by now she has gotten extremely soft. The vet said she has metabolic bone disease (turtle version of osteoporosis). We have gone over the environment and diet for weeks. We have changed her UV bulb twice (there is nothing between the bulb and the turtle), her water tank is clean, her diet is good, her food is good. Two vets have have said the same thing. They think the baytril may have caused the bone problem but that it should be reversible. The turtle has had liquid calcium drops for months but we have a very hard time getting her to take them. We put it on her pellet sticks but that is not very effective in getting enough in her. She has had two Vit D injections to try to help her body utilize her calcium. She just keeps getting softer. Her top and bottom shells are getting almost like a soft shell, all of the connective type stuff between the shell sections, between the top and bottom shell, around her mouth all all swollen and continuing to swell more. Any suggestions would be appreciated. The vet has downgraded her to a 50-50 chance now. The softening is progressing quickly. Thanks.

[Tim & Laurie Schwab]

I couldn___t be certain, but it doesn___t sound like MBD to me. Baytril can damage the kidneys and the treatment length certainly would make kidney dysfunction suspect, especially with the description that sounds like edema. Further, I am not sure what kind of vitamin D you are administering, but it needs to be D3 (cholecalciferol). but if kidney malfunction is the underlying cause, this will further aggravate the condition. Too much phosphorus in the diet can also cause a problem. Personally, I would cut out the vit D injections, make sure the UVB is right, get some reptile intensive care liquid that you can administer orally and not feed otherwise; protein molecules are large and are tough on kidneys. I don___t want to start a debate here, but I have had much fewer skin and shell problems by keeping my DBTs in brackish water. It is tougher to keep clean because bacteria, etc seem to thrive in a salty solution. —–Original Message—– From: Charles & Denise [mailto:dbcb@…] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 8:43 PM To: diamondbackterrapins@ Subject: [diamondbackterrapins] Metabolic bone disease Does anyone have any experience with successfully treating a diamondback with metabolic bone disease. We wrote awhile ago about our diamondback turtle having sores on her skin. She was put on Baytril injections for about 1 week. Then she was put on a different antibiotic for 6 weeks. She was off that for about 2 weeks and then went back on Baytril injections for about 3 months. The skin infections are gone by now she has gotten extremely soft. The vet said she has metabolic bone disease (turtle version of osteoporosis). We have gone over the environment and diet for weeks. We have changed her UV bulb twice (there is nothing between the bulb and the turtle), her water tank is clean, her diet is good, her food is good. Two vets have have said the same thing. They think the baytril may have caused the bone problem but that it should be reversible. The turtle has had liquid calcium drops for months but we have a very hard time getting her to take them. We put it on her pellet sticks but that is not very effective in getting enough in her. She has had two Vit D injections to try to help her body utilize her calcium. She just keeps getting softer. Her top and bottom shells are getting almost like a soft shell, all of the connective type stuff between the shell sections, between the top and bottom shell, around her mouth all all swollen and continuing to swell more. Any suggestions would be appreciated. The vet has downgraded her to a 50-50 chance now. The softening is progressing quickly. Thanks.

[DGGrekoff@aol.com]

In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:44:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, dbcb@… writes: I’ve seen this several times, mostly with box turtles and I tell everyone NEVER let your vet inject vitamin D into your turtle. In boxies it will cause skin sloughing, like a massive sun burn and joint problems effecting limbs and jaws. If turtles are really vitamin D deficient feed them liver and get them outdoors. Another thing to think about is that when calcium is depleted from the shell it has to go somewhere. In some species (many of the Rhinoclemys) this depletion goes to the production of large eggs, which are easier to lay because the shell is now less rigid and the plastron has some movement. In the case of sick turtles becoming soft, I’m afraid the depletion is usually due to calcification of internal organs. An 8 year old turtle likely won’t develop MBD and it would be a slow progression, whereas internal calcification can be quicker. About the use of Baytril with turtles – it’s saved countless numbers. It needs to be given for 14 days (sometimes longer), has low toxicity and is effective against most gram-negative bacteria. But I’m doubting your vet cultured anything gram-negative and just did a routine therapeutic Baytril dosage to cover all the possibilities. As a causative agent, I disagree with the 2 vets who said MBD was because of the Baytril. Dimitri

[macrospilota]

Water turtles are not nearly as susceptible to nephrotoxic antibiotics and vitamins since their kidneys are constantly flushed. Just don’t give a water turtle an injection and then keep them out of the water. As for the softshell and MBD; natural sunlight, oral D3, A, and Ca has been what I have had limited success with. Also very CLEAN alkaline water that is saturated/buffered in calcium and some magnesium (shells, coral substrate, plaster of paris CaSO4, Epsons salt MgSO4). Also, I like to avoid any more than 2 or three injections of any antibiotic. This is because a turtle’s metabolism can vary to extremes whether they are basking or laying dormant. It is also dependant on their age and the average temperature. Long term use of injections can build up in their systems and cause many probems. Good Luck, Scott

[macrospilota]

Also, you might look to promoting the turtle’s immune systems with oral vitamin C and A is always good as a supplement. Vitamin C usually is added to most pelleted foods at the manufacturer but this only lasts three months or so before it is gone. So either give it as a supplement or always use fresh pellets. Many pet stores will have it on their shelves for 6 months alone. -Scott — In diamondbackterrapins@yahoogroups.com, “macrospilota”

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