what ssp?
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http://www.kingsnake.com/market/turtle/messages/9339.html What ssp is this female? She looks Northern but she is from South carolina. Julie
The photo is pretty blurry, but the gray female does look similar to three of my females which all came from sellers on the east coast that called them carolinians. My three all have a slight orange shading to the plastron that I have been wondering whether or not could be an identifier to separate them from northerns? Two of my carolinas came from an area that the seller reported to have wild intergrades of northerns and centratas. I am still wondering about how to tell white-skinned northerns from white skinned centratas? I have and have seen white skinned phases with high-white skin, black tear drops and concentric shell patterns and plastron markings that the sellers have identified as either northern or centrata (carolina). Mixed together, I don’t think I could separate them again. Anyone have any more tips on separating the east coast ssp short of genetic testing? This brings up some reflections regarding subspecies I have been wondering about regarding William Perry Hay’s 1904 “A Revision of Malaclemmys, A Genus of Turtles” treatise published by the Bureau of Fisheries. Hay basically identified only two major terrapin groups: 1) east coast (Atlantic Ocean) and 2) Gulf Coast. Although he has an extensive bibliography of all scientific publications regarding terrapins up until 1904, his own conservation-minded discussion ends up with only four subspecies: 1) centrata (the Carolina terrapin from the east coast) 2) macrospilota (the Florida terrapin) 3) pileata (the Louisiana terrapin) 4) littoralis (from Texas) He then puts Chesapeake Bay varieties under centratas as “centrata concentrica (the Chesapeake terrapin).” Hay admits that the only Gulf Coast specimens he had ever seen were imports to the holding pounds in Maryland where they had apparently adapted to the colder weather and were reproducing as well as intergrading at the time of the report. He noted that by 1904 the east coast had had massive mixing of subspecies due to the commercial food trade. Hay lists a number of fish market names for terrapins that were locality names that carried different prices, but he discounted these as having any real differences beyond local population variations in colors and slight body form differences. Hay’s samples were obviously biased by what was available to him in the pounds in Maryland and he didn’t have genetic testing available. But I think his work is interesting as a snapshot of the situation in 1904 at the point at which scientists were predicting that terrapins would be extinct if something wasn’t done immediately. Hay concludes by dividing the genus into only two distinct groups: those with knobs (tuberculate keels from the Gulf Coast) and those without knobs (Atlantic coast). We’ve heard some very interesting information on this list on genetic testing of the Florida subspecies that did show distinct differences. Anyone know how much genetic difference there is in the east coast, Atlantic Ocean terrapins? My own bias is towards color phases as a captive breeder, but I am concerenced about the genetics of the wild populations since they are so threatened in many areas. Other thoughts and information?? Todd in Texas Julie Tougas wrote:
So your final answer would be no? It is not a northern? Do any of you cross several ssp? I am desperately searching for a mature female northern. But might consider crossing my male northerns with whatever that female is. Julie Todd Stockwell wrote:
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